Curse

shoogi · Feb 18, 2008, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Observing GvG lately, I see that spike-dedicated builds have become very rare in the current gvg metagame. Balanced or sinsplits dominate, and spikes, which used to be run often, and also by top guilds (like EP and EW in the past), are almost never seen. The only guilds I saw today running pure spike builds were [apr] and [Meow] (with some wacko build).

Why Do I think it's a Problem?

I don't think it's necessary for me to explain what spike builds are, but I'll just say that when it comes to build making, there are pure pressure builds (like HA heroway), pure spike builds (like ritspike), and combined builds (balanced builds that spike). In the current GvG meta, one of the categories, pure spike, got almost totally deleted. Therefore, there is a lack of variety in builds used in GvG. Back in the "golden age" of guildwars (world championships) there was some balance between spike and nonspike builds, and you really couldn't know what you are going to face. Top guilds used to run both types of builds, and even switch between them during tournaments. That, in my opinion, made the GvG meta very interesting. Today, the meta is a bit dull, there isn't much difference between builds (everybody's running pretty much the same stuff, with variations). That leads to many complaints about vod builds and sinsplits- you go into gvg knowing what you are going to fight, therefore we have those so called "stale" matches.

What Causes it?

Again, I don't see a need to expand on spike builds, but we all know that spike builds have a difficulty splitting because the entire point of those builds is to combine the strengh of all, or most of the party members into a spike. The current GvG meta encourages splitting heavily, therefore discourages spikes. This is caused by-
- The current VoD system: Killing NPCs and keeping your own alive is vital, because heaving considerably less NPCs than the opponent if the match goes to VoD (which, given how early VoD is, is pretty possible), will be a problem. This means that the build must be capable of splitting.
- The AT map rotation: The current map rotation includes halls that favor splitting (like Druid's Isle and Isle of Wurms), and exclude halls that don't (like Burning Isle and Imperial Isle). This makes a hard time for spike builds in ATs.

What Can be done to Fix the situation?

- Changing VoD by:
a. Removing ViO, so NPCs aren't that important.
b. Setting VoD back to start at 20-25 mins, so it doesn't take place at every match.

- Changing the AT map rotation so it includes both types of guild halls- halls that encourage 8v8 fights, and halls that encourage splits.

JR · Feb 18, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

You might want to read these threads:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10251089
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10255415

Vaga · Feb 18, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

umm adren spike is run on basically every map that doesn't really favor splitting and rawr has won 3 monthlies with it. Pressure is what's gone from the meta...

Iotan · Feb 18, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Yeah, so the only point of yours that I agree with is that there is no spike metagame. This is a result of Nightfall, not anything you listed. Before Nightfall, health totals were appreciably lower than they are now and we had things like broken Gale instead of things like broken Incoming! or Aura of Stability. Super broken Wastrel's Demise helped keep spike alive for a while, but the nerf that hit that skill (and some defense used in spike builds) killed any good spike builds. The only spike guilds around now farm champ points with blood spike on Fire, and that "meta" will exist until Guild Wars Galaxy comes out...

I think the absence of spike builds is one of the main reasons we see a lot of the shit builds around today. Blockway gets its face kicked in by a good spike team, and supersplit teams have to be a lot more careful about collapses and positioning by spike teams. On maps like Warriors or Solitude, where splits take a little time to get going, I would pray that the other team would split right out of the gate because it meant that their stand team either dies or retreats far enough to give us the split. Of course good teams would be able to survive longer and get more done at the split, but that was a strategy that worked wonders during the heavy spike metagame midway through Factions. Frozen was always a challenge and usually meant running between the gate switches and the flagstand while trying to pick off any stragglers. Corrupted is just a bad map, and would usually mean just pushing to their boat while leaving a monk or two at yours.

The recent changes to VoD had no effect on caster spike in GvG. It was non-existent before and continues to be non-existent. Your changes would do nothing to bring back spike builds, as most teams go with Paragons or hexway on 8v8 maps, or some other pressure gimmick. The only way I see real spike builds returning is if Runes of Vitae are taken away and armor swapping is brought back. The 2 spec lost by running minor runes adds up across 5-6 spikers.

Kaon · Feb 19, 2008, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Hi,

I'm necrospike, my cousin is Paraway. My brother Elespike died 2 years ago because of health and shutdown buff, noone mourned his death though as he was an asshole. But even apart from that, Paraway and I have been hated by a lot of people, because we promote dumb and linear gameplay. Will you please tell me that this is good for bad players so they can get high rank too?

Sincerely, the casterspike family.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 19, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Wtf? Spike builds are very much alive, the only reason they aren't the more popular atm is the reliance on NPCs (ViO)

Yue · Feb 19, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Why exactly would a disappearing spike metagame be a bad thing?

Zuranthium · Feb 19, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Even after the nerf to EC, I see tons of Mesmers using it. Had to Monk against it twice last night. Spike is not dead at all, this thread is dumb.

~Z

Farin · Feb 20, 2008, 02:19 AM // 02:19

bring pressure back =)

Div · Feb 20, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

bring pressure back =)

Guru needs to be more like QQ and just let me quote this without saying anything.

Pressure is now pretty much nonexistent, and it sucks.

Captain Robo · Feb 20, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

I don't even know what "pressure" is anymore. I'm beginning to get the feeling that when people say things like this, they're just looking for a convenient excuse to hearken back to some good old times and reminisce about builds that are no longer 100% viable.

No build was ever pure pressure, because even old style pressure builds incorporated at least some measure of 321 Spike (I may be splitting hairs... but spike damage bursts have always been the best way to kill someone in this game). If you're talking strictly of how these builds play in order to score kills, this seems like a really loose method of categorizing a build. Not even two months ago people on this forum were lamenting the loss of split builds in the worst possible way... now that splits are back, either nobody cares, or regrets what they wished for.

It is true that Anet brought necessitated splits back in the worst possible way, but if splitting was your favored play style, why complain?

Defensive builds became popular (and still are) as a means to counter and mitigate the damage from pressure-style builds. If Anet swoops in and makes a change which brings pressure back, they will screw it up bigger than anything they have ever done. They'll either mega-nerf defense, or buff offense to a level which makes it even more overpowered than it is now. It will be RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO like you wouldn't believe. It should be plainly obvious how incompetent Anet is, so I'm of the opinion that they should make only a few tweaks from where the game is now, and never touch it again.

It's about time players decided the metagame... don't you think?

Kaon · Feb 20, 2008, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Guru needs to be more like QQ and just let me quote this without saying anything.

Pressure is now pretty much nonexistent, and it sucks.

Don't exhaggerate.

Vaga · Feb 20, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I don't even know what "pressure" is anymore. I'm beginning to get the feeling that when people say things like this, they're just looking for a convenient excuse to hearken back to some good old times and reminisce about builds that are no longer 100% viable.

No build was ever pure pressure, because even old style pressure builds incorporated at least some measure of 321 Spike (I may be splitting hairs... but spike damage bursts have always been the best way to kill someone in this game). If you're talking strictly of how these builds play in order to score kills, this seems like a really loose method of categorizing a build. Not even two months ago people on this forum were lamenting the loss of split builds in the worst possible way... now that splits are back, either nobody cares, or regrets what they wished for.

It is true that Anet brought necessitated splits back in the worst possible way, but if splitting was your favored play style, why complain?

Defensive builds became popular (and still are) as a means to counter and mitigate the damage from pressure-style builds. If Anet swoops in and makes a change which brings pressure back, they will screw it up bigger than anything they have ever done. They'll either mega-nerf defense, or buff offense to a level which makes it even more overpowered than it is now. It will be RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO like you wouldn't believe. It should be plainly obvious how incompetent Anet is, so I'm of the opinion that they should make only a few tweaks from where the game is now, and never touch it again.

It's about time players decided the metagame... don't you think?

I don't recall people asking for split builds to come back a few months ago, because split was perfectly effective back then. Even DF balanced could split effectively which is the type of split play that's desirable.

Pressure is basically when you're trying to get kills by the other team ending up not being able to handle your offense anymore and collapsing rather than spiking where you plan to get the majority of your kills 1 at a time until the other team can't res anymore.

I don't agree that ANet should just do a few tweaks and leave the game alone right now, because it is completely broken and not fun to play. If they can somehow get lucky and do a good balance change that fixes the main problems making the game half decent again then yes they should probably just quit while their ahead. Unfortunately since ANet really doesn't know what they're doing who knows when something like this will happen.

Riotgear · Feb 20, 2008, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

No build was ever pure pressure, because even old style pressure builds incorporated at least some measure of 321 Spike (I may be splitting hairs... but spike damage bursts have always been the best way to kill someone in this game).

"Spike" essentially means people die because the monks can't react fast enough to a synchronized high-damage attack, "pressure" means the team explodes or has to fall back because they can't keep health bars up or run out of energy.

There is some interplay, obviously, since it's a lot easier to spike people when health levels are generally low and monks can't afford to prot effectively, but spike is generally an attack on reaction time whereas pressure is an attack on coordination and awareness.

Problem is right now with HB, WoH on crack, Motigons, energy denial in a relatively non-usable state, and GoLE-abuse-powered Aegis, pressure isn't going to do shit.

shrouded^god · Feb 20, 2008, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Guru needs to be more like QQ and have RICH AND SUNNY MELONS DRAMA

Fixed...I agree 110%

around · Feb 20, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

If pressure means going back to hexes....

No

Captain Robo · Feb 20, 2008, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

"Spike" essentially means people die because the monks can't react fast enough to a synchronized high-damage attack, "pressure" means the team explodes or has to fall back because they can't keep health bars up or run out of energy.

See, that's the thing. I don't trust Anet to balance this game correctly anymore, and the way they'd go about making this sort of a change, if they hypothetically "bring back" pressure, they're going to make it so that some characters are able to output the damage of a full spike by themselves.

The alternative is to nerf partywide defense as a whole, which also means that spike builds have a higher chance of killing targets of opportunity, due to a defense web not protecting a random target at certain intervals.

Most balanced builds these days incorporate many elements of past builds. Double Warrior + Motigon constitute considerable physical pressure, with the added bonus of a powerful 321-spike; midline forms a powerful defensive web; and many of these builds are also split capable. Your standard modern balanced build has a little bit of everything, and does it all pretty well.

Yet there is general dissatisfaction with what people consider they are 'forced' to play in this metagame. How can you say you want pressure to make a comeback if stacking ridiculous amounts of partywide defense is what caused it to fall by the wayside in the first place; that's what it took in order to be able to beat pressure.

I guess the real choice here is if you want every match to run to VoD (more defensive builds) or have a clear winner in the first 3 minutes (frontloaded pressure). This game has generally favored those who turtle defensively until VoD, and I don't see any reason why it won't continue to do so.

It would be great if Anet was competent... but time and again they've proven themselves to be anything but. I'd welcome a return of pressure, provided it was implemented correctly, and I just don't trust them to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

If pressure means going back to hexes....

No

^^^ Agreed 100%

wuzzman · Feb 21, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Robo

I don't even know what "pressure" is anymore. I'm beginning to get the feeling that when people say things like this, they're just looking for a convenient excuse to hearken back to some good old times and reminisce about builds that are no longer 100% viable.

No build was ever pure pressure, because even old style pressure builds incorporated at least some measure of 321 Spike (I may be splitting hairs... but spike damage bursts have always been the best way to kill someone in this game). If you're talking strictly of how these builds play in order to score kills, this seems like a really loose method of categorizing a build. Not even two months ago people on this forum were lamenting the loss of split builds in the worst possible way... now that splits are back, either nobody cares, or regrets what they wished for.

It is true that Anet brought necessitated splits back in the worst possible way, but if splitting was your favored play style, why complain?

Defensive builds became popular (and still are) as a means to counter and mitigate the damage from pressure-style builds. If Anet swoops in and makes a change which brings pressure back, they will screw it up bigger than anything they have ever done. They'll either mega-nerf defense, or buff offense to a level which makes it even more overpowered than it is now. It will be RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO RED ENGINE GO like you wouldn't believe. It should be plainly obvious how incompetent Anet is, so I'm of the opinion that they should make only a few tweaks from where the game is now, and never touch it again.

It's about time players decided the metagame... don't you think?

a sizeable nerf to glph of lesser energy will tip the meta into super offense.

erk · Feb 21, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

a sizeable nerf to glph of lesser energy will tip the meta into super offense.

It's probably a trick Izzy can keep up his sleeve to rattle the cage with when the current meta finally reaches it's equilibrium and gets boring again. At the moment there is enough turbulence!

Fire Childe · Feb 21, 2008, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

"Spike" essentially means people die because the monks can't react fast enough to a synchronized high-damage attack, "pressure" means the team explodes or has to fall back because they can't keep health bars up or run out of energy.

This. In the last few dailys most of the teams were doing some sort of balanced build and a few (like International District) were doing sinsplit. Most of the balanced teams had a pretty lethal spike going on - you just dont see it coming from the same profession anymore. Theres 2 warriors combo'ing you, a mesmer shattering you, one ele dropping a lightning orb on you and another with rodgorts on the way in the space of 1 second.

The only team we played that did pressure degen was [SnP] and even then only once. It was serious degen and hexes though :X . We played them twice and before that its was a different balanced build and it was about the spikes.

I dont think you get half the team being the same build/profession with a different spirit anymore because if you keep doing it everyone else can see it a mile off and you can spec a few counters so the other team has basically lost before they even get out of their own base.

In the last daily I played in, we instinctively dropped infuse on our monks when we were matched against [Meow]. It turned out they werent running bspike in the end though -___- . Not surprising in hindsight since every other guild in that tournament could play split well.